Foreign language category (Tag, Tag UI, Discourse, แท็ก タグ टैग התגים )

There is a growing set of topics here about using KM with foreign languages.

So I will make a motion for a new forum category: Other Languages.
(Other than English).

A real category on a par with General / Macro / Plugin, etc.
(Not a tag. Less-active posters and new-comers don’t use tags, and the tag interface is awkward at best.)

Users of Oriental languages will have special questions that don’t apply to KM users who work in character-based languages.

Anyone using Hebrew or Arabic may have questions about working right to left.

Even Regular Expressions could raise questions specific to other languages.

I’ve written almost 100 macros that apply to Thai language.
Maybe my approach will be useful to someone writing in Hindi or another language that also uses superior/subordinate characters.

So I suggest organizing a category on KM for foreign languages.

No cost to set up.
No work for the developer.
Just a few keystrokes from the forum admin.

Any seconds to the motion?

If you make it a Forum Category instead of a Tag, how do you deal with cross-overs? For example, where do you post a Macro that deals with non-English language in some way? "macros" or "Other Languages" ?

What if it deals with English as well as non-English languages?

I understand your concerns about using tags, but this is exactly what tags are designed for -- to categorize the same topic with multiple key subjects. Maybe we can review the Forum tag UI.

So, i'd suggest two tags:
(these are working names -- I don't really like either of them. Ideas?)

  • language_non_English -- denotes Macros/Actions written in a language other than English
  • language_processing -- denotes Macros/Actions that deal with the processing or handling of languages

Here is one approach: We could start out using tags, and then after we have a number of real topics with these tags, review the effectivity, and adjust as needed, even adding a new Forum Category if that is indicated.

However, since I am a single-language user/poster, my perspective on this may not be fully informed. So I definitely would like to see the thoughts of others, and some real examples of topics that would be in a new Category or new tag.

Your thoughts?

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I agree with @JMichaelTX.

A quick forum search yields these numbers of relevant hits:

  • hebrew: 1 (the other hit refers to an arbitrary literal in a code snippet)
  • arabic: 0 (the one hits refers to arabic numerals)
  • japanese: 1 (the other two are false positives (“Japan”))
  • chinese: 1 (the other hits are generic examples)

So, I also think, a few tags would do. Proposal: CJK and right_to_left (or RTL).

Maybe a generic language tag could be useful, too. (For example, for topics related to input sources, keyboard layouts, translation macros, etc.)

2 Likes

[quote="JMichaelTX, post:2, topic:5361"]
this is exactly what tags are designed for -- to categorize the same topic with multiple key subjects. [/quote]

Thank you, @JMichaelTX, for thoughtful reply.

Yes, tags would be the right way to do it, but Discourse user-interface for tags is primative.
Better to not use it for this purpose.
Among other reasons, most people whose primary language is not English will not scroll through a long, unordered, list of English tags.
.


Good idea to search like that!
.

Yes, certainly useful.
But, among people not highly fluent in English, tags, in general, won't be used.
.

Okay, I'll simply add something like "foreign language" in titles of my topics, as needed.
Quick and easy that way.
No need for tags.

Thank you both for helpful replies.

The available Forum Tags UI is not well understood, nor documented in an easy to find place. You can view the entire list of Tags, ordered by Tag Name, on the "Tags" page:

Once on the Tags page, you can use the standard browser Find command to search for characters of interest, like "lang".

For more details on Forum Tags, see:
New Forum Feature: TAGS

This topic has morphed from "Foreign language category" into "Tags UI".
Very useful.
The discussion here has shown me that the problem is tags, not categories.
.

@JMichaelTX, I wish I could agree with your thinking about Tags UI, but I can't.
Your instructions above are neat, clear, and easy to follow.
But they are excellent instructions for a bad interface.
.

Everything else on Discourse works so smoothly and intuitively;
But not tags.
Better to simply turn off the tags function.
.

[quote="JMichaelTX, post:2, topic:5361"]
If you make it a Forum Category instead of a Tag, how do you deal with cross-overs?[/quote]

Thank you for asking, because it helped my thinking, too.
That's the essential question.

My premise is to leave it up to each individual.
No group-think or central authority needed.

If the poster wanted links to cross-over terms, he simply adds those into the post.
Anywhere:

  • title (in parentheses, like this)
  • first line in the message (Also refers to: ...)
  • last line in the message

Location of those cross-over words (tags) doesn't matter at all, because Discourse search finds words anywhere.

Moderators read every post here, so, if more cross-over words would help in future searches, just add them.

Something like this:

  • Macro timer for soft-boiled eggs (cooking, breakfast)

A mod seeing that, and wanting to encourage wider uses for KM, adds this:

  • Macro timer for soft-boiled eggs (cooking, breakfast, KM_home_automation)

Plus, leaving it up to each individual, makes it effortless to handle foreign languages, too.
Instantly, without any need for advance discussion about tags, or any effort from the admin.

  • Macro timer for soft-boiled eggs (timers, breakfast, นาฬิกาไข่ต้ม )

Plus, no need for any instructions either.
If it's a good idea, other forum users will do it.
It not a good idea, they won't.

Trial and error and testing on this post shows that:

  • Yes, can edit topic title to add key words (tags). I did it here.
  • Yes, can use foreign languages in topic titles.
  • Yes, Discourse searches foreign languages characters. Example:

Well, I won't be using Tags function here.
Among forum users, whose native language is not English, I predict that hardly any of them will, either.

Instead, to handle cross-overs, I'll simply start adding "tag words" in parentheses in topic titles.
I'm confident that Discourse search will find everything.

CJK and RTL are well-established acronyms in the English lexicon, and both refer to very specific technical issues, so I’m sure they would serve well.

(Tho I happen to use scripts of both those kinds every day, and I’m not sure that all that many KM issues have really cropped up in them :slight_smile: )

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I don’t think either. But the OP suggested to establish a whole new forum category; in that light tags would be an alternative – light – solution…

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My experience across many forums and many years is that many users do NOT enter a good, descriptive Title for the topic.

It is hard enough to get users to pick the right sub-forum ("category" in Discourse forums), and the right tags, much less ask them to enter well-formed Titles.

I agree the Discourse forum Tag UI could use improvement. If you have specific ideas, I'd suggest that you submit them at meta.discourse.org

Meanwhile, what can we do now?

It is very easy for moderators to change/assign tags -- just a couple of clicks.
It would be much, much more effort to change/reformat Titles.
@peternlewis has expressed numerous times that he prefers to keep the forum "categories" (sub-forums) to a very limited number.

I can create new Tags immediately. So, if you would like to try the Tags approach, then please list the tags you think would be useful.

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.

Thanks, @JMichaelTX, for taking your time to make the problem clear to me.

I will put extra thought into writing clear, well-formed titles.

And I will start to add "cross-over" terms somewhere in my posts, to help future searches.

As for Discourse tags (as they are now), I won't use them, but if any moderator adds tags to my posts, thanks in advance for doing that.

Problem solved.

1 Like